Cal/Mag Products.

[frankreynolds]

So Coco has a high capacity to hold onto Cations, which are positively charged ions (potassium, Calcium, magnesium etc.)

Naturally coco is riddled with high amounts of potassium and sodium, as that is where the coconut plants move all the excess salts from seawater to the coconut hairs.

the sodium naturally present in coco will do a lot of damage to plants but it is initially locked away. But when you feed nutrients through that un buffered coco the calcium and magnesium which are double positive charged will displace the sodium held up within the medium released large amounts of sodium to the plant while locking up the calcium and magnesium (the double positive charge means coco will prefer those elements)

So companies rinse all the potassium and sodium out of coco, then replace those free cation sites within the coco with calcium in the form of calcium nitrate. More expensive coco also will have magnesium nitrate used as a better buffer afailk.

Also coco is an organic medium that will slowly breakdown, as it does new Cation sites are opened up which will absorb and lockup further calcium/magnesium/potassium

Why i don't think Cal/Mag is needed is because the majority of products out there the Calcium portion is sourced from Calcium Nitrate. Same ingredient that makes up the majority of the Part A in a 2 part hydroponic nutrient. If you were to just use cal mag product ur adding a lot of extra nitrogen. So I recommend bumping up both a+b to hit higher calcium levels while keeping all other nutrients in balance which is by far the most important thing imo.

All of this assuming you have a calcium deficiency, calcium movement through plants is disctated mostly by water movement through plants. A subpar environment will mean sub optimal water movement through plant affecting calcium uptake regardless of how much you feed them

 

[Fatsacks]

study one of those pictorial guides that diagnoses plant deficiencies/excesses and after some trial and error you will be able to read your plants well and they will often tell you what they are missing.

 

[afghan bob]

Makes a big difference what sorta coco u buy, pretty sure Canna coco comes already pre-buffered with optimal ph
Compared to those bricks u get from Bunnings or corner shops theirs not much comparison
As mentioned learn to read ure plants u will notice a cal or mag deficiency, usually little brown rusty looking spots
I’ve used canna coco for last few yrs and been mixing in canna terra and worm castings and a few dubious ingredients that would bring on gag effect in true enthusiasts and been pretty lucky with no cal-mag nightmares, I think if u pretty new to what works best (not saying u are) then the less u play harry butler, the quicker u learn what’s up
I think when cal-mags on the table, they be talking pure coco with no other ingredients and unbuffered
Anyhow give it a try either way and see what works for you

 

[possum]

So Coco has a high capacity to hold onto Cations, which are positively charged ions (potassium, Calcium, magnesium etc.)

Naturally coco is riddled with high amounts of potassium and sodium, as that is where the coconut plants move all the excess salts from seawater to the coconut hairs.

the sodium naturally present in coco will do a lot of damage to plants but it is initially locked away. But when you feed nutrients through that un buffered coco the calcium and magnesium which are double positive charged will displace the sodium held up within the medium released large amounts of sodium to the plant while locking up the calcium and magnesium (the double positive charge means coco will prefer those elements)

So companies rinse all the potassium and sodium out of coco, then replace those free cation sites within the coco with calcium in the form of calcium nitrate. More expensive coco also will have magnesium nitrate used as a better buffer afailk.

Also coco is an organic medium that will slowly breakdown, as it does new Cation sites are opened up which will absorb and lockup further calcium/magnesium/potassium

Why i don't think Cal/Mag is needed is because the majority of products out there the Calcium portion is sourced from Calcium Nitrate. Same ingredient that makes up the majority of the Part A in a 2 part hydroponic nutrient. If you were to just use cal mag product ur adding a lot of extra nitrogen. So I recommend bumping up both a+b to hit higher calcium levels while keeping all other nutrients in balance which is by far the most important thing imo.

All of this assuming you have a calcium deficiency, calcium movement through plants is disctated mostly by water movement through plants. A subpar environment will mean sub optimal water movement through plant affecting calcium uptake regardless of how much you feed them

G,Day frankreynolds. I will need a little time to absorb the information you have just imparted. The first 5 or so paragraphs i understand. The why i dont think Cal/Mag is needed Paragraph i will need to give the information some thought. I grow only Autoflowers, they dont use a lot of nutrients,so i am a little wary about upping the nutrients . So, dont use Cal/Mag which is loaded up on Nitrogen, and up the AandB for the extra Calcium. Balance,keeping all other nutrients in balance i totally agree. And your last statement about the Calcium movement through plants, I experienced the results of that when i had big problems with very low Humidity recently. So, now i need to figure out how i now approach my Autoflower grows. There is so much to learn and so little time to do it in ! Thanks, frankreynolds, your well considered answer is much appreciated. One other thing, I would be interested to know is , What Coco do you use ? and how do you prepare it for a grow ? Gotta go, Thanks, Possum.....

 

[possum]

Makes a big difference what sorta coco u buy, pretty sure Canna coco comes already pre-buffered with optimal ph
Compared to those bricks u get from Bunnings or corner shops theirs not much comparison
As mentioned learn to read ure plants u will notice a cal or mag deficiency, usually little brown rusty looking spots
I’ve used canna coco for last few yrs and been mixing in canna terra and worm castings and a few dubious ingredients that would bring on gag effect in true enthusiasts and been pretty lucky with no cal-mag nightmares, I think if u pretty new to what works best (not saying u are) then the less u play harry butler, the quicker u learn what’s up
I think when cal-mags on the table, they be talking pure coco with no other ingredients and unbuffered
Anyhow give it a try either way and see what works for you

G,Day afghan bob: I will have to get back to you soon have been Harry Butlering all day and i need to hit the cot. Or should i say the trees. Possum.....

 

[frankreynolds]

G,Day frankreynolds. I will need a little time to absorb the information you have just imparted. The first 5 or so paragraphs i understand. The why i dont think Cal/Mag is needed Paragraph i will need to give the information some thought. I grow only Autoflowers, they dont use a lot of nutrients,so i am a little wary about upping the nutrients . So, dont use Cal/Mag which is loaded up on Nitrogen, and up the AandB for the extra Calcium. Balance,keeping all other nutrients in balance i totally agree. And your last statement about the Calcium movement through plants, I experienced the results of that when i had big problems with very low Humidity recently. So, now i need to figure out how i now approach my Autoflower grows. There is so much to learn and so little time to do it in ! Thanks, frankreynolds, your well considered answer is much appreciated. One other thing, I would be interested to know is , What Coco do you use ? and how do you prepare it for a grow ? Gotta go, Thanks, Possum.....

I personally use whichever Hydroponic branded variety is available somewhat locally to me. Past few times it has been Cyco coco coir

You also don't need to do anything to premium coco bought from hydroponic stores can be used out of the bag

 

[possum]

I personally use whichever Hydroponic branded variety is available somewhat locally to me. Past few times it has been Cyco coco coir

You also don't need to do anything to premium coco bought from hydroponic stores can be used out of the bag

G,Day. frankreynolds. I live out in the backblocks and the only Coco i can get is Cyco Coco, and have always buffered it. I have a couple of fresh bags of Cyco Coco Bitz ( in the pink bag ), i did a ppm test and it came out at PPM 800 ! I certainly cannot use that as it is out of the bag for Autoflowers. So, at the least i will have to rinse it down to a more acceptable PPM level. Thanks for your time and input, it is much appreciated.......Possum.

 

[possum]

G,Day afghan bob: I will have to get back to you soon have been Harry Butlering all day and i need to hit the cot. Or should i say the trees. Possum.....

G,Day afghan bob. As you can see with my answer to frankreynolds, I use Cyco coco Bitz. And the less i play Harry Butler the quicker i will learn whats up . What that means i have no idea. Please explain ! I am here to learn, thankyou for your input. Possum...

 

[afghan bob]

Yeah good old Harry might have been before your time young fellah
He was a kind ol bugga who had a knack 4 finding things miraculasly where he said they'd be, usually planted by his crew pre-production. the old "I reckon there's a red belly black snake under that branch" or "lift up that leaf and i reckon u'll find a funnel web spider"......i think Russel Coight based his character on him
I used him in ref to say things won't always work or be in proper place unless u give it a go yourself
Probs not best anollagy but all i could think of
Anyhoo, 1.6 ec seems really strong 4 a soiless medium, does it say pre-buffered on the bag ?
Spose all u can do is flush it down 2 acceptable levels and if u gonna go 2 all that trouble might be better with cheaper stuff, as always, u dont really know until u give it a go.....oh yeah use ph adjusted water

 

[Goonie Goat]

You can make your own calmag, plenty of diy posts on other forums and web articles that explain how to make it. Calcium Nitrate, Magnesium Nitrate (magnesium sulfate works too) and a little chelated iron

 

[afghan bob]

Epson salts and egg shells.....easy peasy

 

[possum]

Yeah good old Harry might have been before your time young fellah
He was a kind ol bugga who had a knack 4 finding things miraculasly where he said they'd be, usually planted by his crew pre-production. the old "I reckon there's a red belly black snake under that branch" or "lift up that leaf and i reckon u'll find a funnel web spider"......i think Russel Coight based his character on him
I used him in ref to say things won't always work or be in proper place unless u give it a go yourself
Probs not best anollagy but all i could think of
Anyhoo, 1.6 ec seems really strong 4 a soiless medium, does it say pre-buffered on the bag ?
Spose all u can do is flush it down 2 acceptable levels and if u gonna go 2 all that trouble might be better with cheaper stuff, as always, u dont really know until u give it a go.....oh yeah use ph adjusted water

Yes, i recently purchased 2 bags of Cyco Coco, one bag, the Cyco Coco Bitz had a reading of 1.6ec. The other green bag has an ec of 1.2. Does it say pre-buffered on the bag ? Absolutely. Also, what ph do you suggest i use to flush the Coco with ? Thanks very much for your interest and help, Possum.

 

[frankreynolds]

G,Day. frankreynolds. I live out in the backblocks and the only Coco i can get is Cyco Coco, and have always buffered it. I have a couple of fresh bags of Cyco Coco Bitz ( in the pink bag ), i did a ppm test and it came out at PPM 800 ! I certainly cannot use that as it is out of the bag for Autoflowers. So, at the least i will have to rinse it down to a more acceptable PPM level. Thanks for your time and input, it is much appreciated.......Possum.

I personally haven't used anything but there pure coco bags and never had any issues using it straight out of the bag. The coco will not have a 0 ec and you shouldn't expect it to.

 

[possum]

I personally haven't used anything but there pure coco bags and never had any issues using it straight out of the bag. The coco will not have a 0 ec and you shouldn't expect it to.

G,Day frankreynolds , yes i also have been using Cyco Coco now for about 6or 7 years. I have just tested another bag of Cyco Coco Bitz. the ec is ec1.0 / 500ppm. As i only grow Autoflowers i like to get it down to around 75ppm, the same as my tap water. A little background info. I grow in coco and i germinate my seeds directly in the final pot. I usually start my nutrients around 200ppm, so i need to flush the Coco down as low as i can go, this is usually around 70 to 80 ppm, the same as my prepared,Dechlorinated water.So, i have no choice but to flush it .Consequently, i cannot use any Coco out of the bag. I don`t think i have ever expected any Coco i use to have a 0 ec. Every bag i use i check the ppm before i use it. I suppose you can use it straight out of the bag because you are growing photo`s ? and they are more tolerant to the higher ec ? You use pure Coco, that sounds like the green bag ? So, seeing as how i have to flush the Coco down anyway, i might as well Re-Buffer it as well ! That`s why i was asking about the Cal/Mag in the first place. Anyway, i have learn`t a few things on the way, Thanks frankreynolds , ya bloods worth bottlin. Possum....

 

[frankreynolds]

Have you considered those salts you are washing out are the same added to buffer the coco?

I have never grown auto's, but i don't think there is a huge difference there in germination.

 

[VinDeezle]

Autos function the same physiologically as a photoperiod when it comes to metabolism (that's more driven by genetics and a host of environmental factors). They don't need special feed regiments or rituals and the only difference is their ability to flower without a photoperiod change. Most autos only have a few percent auto in their genes anyway (think 3-5%, enough to stabilise the autoflower genes without taking much from the photoperiod parents).

I've ran autos on every photoperiod imaginable in Coco, peat, organic and living soils and they haven't needed any special autoflower specific treatment in any way.

I'd say most of it is just habit, not necessity and you'd be fine to just buy any reputable Coco and skip all the flushing and sacrificial rituals.

 

[possum]

Have you considered those salts you are washing out are the same added to buffer the coco?

I have never grown auto's, but i don't think there is a huge difference there in germination.

G,Day. frankreynolds. I believe the salts i am washing out are an over abundance of Potassium ? Can you expand on your first statement, i am not quite sure what your driving at ? I dont believe there is any difference in germination, whether they be photos, Autos, whatever. Thanks. Possum.

 

[frankreynolds]

G,Day. frankreynolds. I believe the salts i am washing out are an over abundance of Potassium ? Can you expand on your first statement, i am not quite sure what your driving at ? I dont believe there is any difference in germination, whether they be photos, Autos, whatever. Thanks. Possum.

That over abundance of Potassium would of been leached and replaced in the buffering process before it arrived at the shop. They used Calcium nitrate salts to do that, You are then receiving the coco taking it home, and rinsing that calcium nitrate (buffer) out.

What i said in regards to germination was because i thought you were under the assumption autos need less EC or something than normal Canna my bad.

You do not need 0 ec medium for seeds.

 

[possum]

Autos function the same physiologically as a photoperiod when it comes to metabolism (that's more driven by genetics and a host of environmental factors). They don't need special feed regiments or rituals and the only difference is their ability to flower without a photoperiod change. Most autos only have a few percent auto in their genes anyway (think 3-5%, enough to stabilise the autoflower genes without taking much from the photoperiod parents).

I've ran autos on every photoperiod imaginable in Coco, peat, organic and living soils and they haven't needed any special autoflower specific treatment in any way.

I'd say most of it is just habit, not necessity and you'd be fine to just buy any reputable Coco and skip all the flushing and sacrificial rituals.

G,Day, VinDeezle: Yes i understand that Photo`s and Auto`s function the same metabolically , consequently, they don`t need any special nutrient requirements , only less of them, in some cases much less. Most breeders of Autoflowers say there is around 20% of the Ruderalis Gene , which is the Gene responsible for the Autoflowering trait, in most Auto`s. Genetically, i would say that is a significant amount. You have grown many Autoflowers in many different ways and you haven`t needed any special Autoflower specific treatment at all. That`s good, i would expect much the same. So what your saying is, use a reputable brand of Coco , as far as i know Cyco Coco is a reputable brand of Coco, go straight from bag to pot, germinate seeds in said pot and away we go! Bearing in mind that there is 800ppm of salts in that pot ? What am i missing here ? Do you grow Auto`s in Coco straight from the bag , without any ,as you say, flushing and sacrificial rituals ? What Coco do you use,i would very much like to dispense with all the flushing etc, etc, that would make my life somewhat easier. Thanks for your input VinDeezle: much appreciated... Possum.

 

[possum]

That over abundance of Potassium would of been leached and replaced in the buffering process before it arrived at the shop. They used Calcium nitrate salts to do that, You are then receiving the coco taking it home, and rinsing that calcium nitrate (buffer) out.

What i said in regards to germination was because i thought you were under the assumption autos need less EC or something than normal Canna my bad.

You do not need 0 ec medium for seeds.

G,Day, so what your saying is i am stuffing up the Coco before i even begin ? O.K. Yes i do believe Auto`s need less e.c to grow,and yes i am aware i do not need a 0e.c medium for seeds. So ,What i am going to do is, take my Coco straight from the bag, put it in the pot, ( and i promise not to perform any rituals, maybe just one sacrificial chook.) i will plant my seeds and wait for the magic to happen. Hellaluya i am saved......Thanks fellas........Possum.