Osmocote Seed & Cutting 👎

[itchybro]

commercially operated windrows are a way of composting large amounts of organic material
like the material pickup by kerbside green waste collection in your street
a way of turning all kinds of waste into $$$$

yes they need to kill weed seeds otherwise buyers of this finished compost wouldn't be happy
with weeds germinating in the bags they are sold in

keeping in mind organisms are at the base of composting , they create the heat to kill those seeds & out compete those pathogen
without them composting wouldn't happen & the biomass wouldn't be converted into plant available nutrients / compost

as mentioned before not all compost is created equal = same but different

 

[frankreynolds]

Exactly, so I am unsure how these products are devoid of all good bacteria and fungi?

 

[Billygoat]

@Billygoat if you can be arsed give the soil another go and give it a feed on day one with water soluble/liquid ferts and you should get the results you were originally looking for. I know it's cheating treating it like you would coco but it works and needs far less nutes unless you're growing monster mullies or something super hungry.

Hi Seeded, I have used seed raising mix, not sure of brand, before without issue. I was feeding with a half strength megacrop from when they showed roots in the rock wool cubes, continued that into the seed raising mix.

I got cuttings n seedlings in a mix of that and coco perlite but I washed my seed mix out a few times first seems to be ok haven’t had a problem did you flush it out well before you used bro ?

I did not flush out the seed raising mix. Well, I did thoroughly wet it with a bit of run off, but not intentionally trying to flush it out per say.


@itchybro I don't think the problem was with the different mediums. the roots did grow out the bottom of the small pots i put them in, but they then seemed to brown and die off. Initially i was bottom feeding them as I had buried the stretch out of them a bit, but then started top feeding.

When I washed the mix off the roots there was quite a lot of root system, but it looked shit. a brown tinge to it.. certainly not a healthy root system. In saying that I was rough with it, and hsoed it off on shower mode without being too careful and the roots did not break away from the rockwool cube, got most of them in to the perlite mix and fed immediately with the same half strength megacrop mix. The plant in the perlite is normal now and has nice healthy roots sticking out the bottom of the pot already.

 

[Billygoat]

I have at least half the bag left if there are any basic tests I can do on it to confirm its "shitness" lol

 

[Sedge]

Sniff test.

 

[itchybro]

well Frank , if osmocote treat there soil mix or compost they use in soil mixes with high temps , like nersuries do with steam i think you said before
( sorry if i put words in your mouth there ) aka sterilized to kill potentially disease-causing microorganisms , legionella for instance , the heat
used can be allot higher than natural composting temps , in effect hitting the soil with a antibiotic , they can't target individual bad bacteria or
pathogens , it can only be broad spectrum , kill all approach

it's the same thinking as Round Up Ready GMO , if you wipe out any / all pest , pathogen / bacteria , fungi in the grow environment
nothing can cause plant problems effecting the yield bottom line

i'm pretty sure canna terra pro soil is treated due to it being an import , can't remember what they use but i think it's more full on then steam sterilization

ok just jumped on the Australian Government Department of Ag , Water & the Environment
& went through importing Spagnam moss from Canada & this is what it says

Case: Sphagnum moss Effective: 27 Apr 2022​

Sphagnum moss — Not sphagnum liquid waste absorbent — Not for personal use — Country of origin is a country other than New Zealand​

Import Conditions​

Import conditions define the biosecurity requirements which must be met for your import. Where import conditions have been developed, they will be listed below.

1. A Department of Agriculture, Water and the Environment import permit is not required.
2. The goods must be clean and free of contaminant seed, soil, animal and plant debris and other prior to arrival in Australian territory.
3. Each consignment must be treated appropriately prior to export.
   To demonstrate compliance with this requirement you must present the following on a Phytosanitary certificate:
   An additional declaration that the consignment has been treated with one of the following approved treatments:
   1. ethylene oxide fumigation treatment, under an initial vacuum of 50kPa, at:
      2.1. a rate of 1200g/m3 for 5 hours at 50°C, or
      2.2. a rate of 1500g/m3 for 24 hours at 21°C
   2. heat treatment at no less than 85°C with hot air for not less than 12 hours once the core temperature has been reached, or
   3. gamma irradiation at 25 kGy (2.5Mrad).
   Treatment will be carried out at the importer's expense.
4. All material in the consignment must be dried
5. Any packaging used with the consignment must be clean and new.
6. Each consignment is subject to a full unpack and inspection at an approved arrangement site (AA site). Consignments will be inspected to ensure that they are free of live insects, seeds, viable plant material and other biosecurity risk material (BRM).
7. If live insects are found during inspection, the consignment will be:
   1. held pending identification by a Department of Agriculture, Water and the Environment entomologist and treated using an appropriate method, or
   2. exported, or
   3. disposed of.
   If other contaminants such as soil, weed seeds, sticks, or faecal matter are found on inspection, the consignment must be held, and the contaminants must be removed or treated via a method approved by the department, if possible. Alternatively, the goods must be exported or disposed of.
8. Under the and Chapter 9, Part 2 of the , fees are payable to the Department of Agriculture, Water and the Environment for all services. Detail on how the department applies fees and levies may be found in the .
9. In addition to the conditions for the goods being imported, non-commodity concerns must be assessed including container cleanliness, packaging and destination concerns, and may be subject to inspection and treatment on arrival. Please refer to the Non-Commodity Cargo Clearance BICON case for further information.
   
   
   
   

 

[itchybro]

I have at least half the bag left if there are any basic tests I can do on it to confirm its "shitness" lol

i'm no fan of off the shelf potting media
it's quite possible you've already done the tests & your " it's shit " conclution could be acurate

in saying that , there are so many variables , watering from the bottom to much / over watering
can give you / your plant unhealthy looking roots

pick a veg seed & put some in & see how it go's i reckon , treat the same as the canna seed & if the same
result happens

 

[Billygoat]

i'm no fan of off the shelf potting media
it's quite possible you've already done the tests & your " it's shit " conclution could be acurate

in saying that , there are so many variables , watering from the bottom to much / over watering
can give you / your plant unhealthy looking roots

pick a veg seed & put some in & see how it go's i reckon , treat the same as the canna seed & if the same
result happens

Nah mate, I am too lazy to be bothered testing it...

but like the veg seeds idea. I will do that tomorrow.

 

[RiverRat]

Steer clear of this stuff.

I sprouted some seeds Last month. Put them in rock wool cubes and the took off fine.

Potted up to this mix, they stalled, yellowed and I was almost gonna bin them

Anyway just to make sure it wasn’t something else, it is getting cold…

I removed one, washed all the dirt off under the tap and threw it in a 70/30 perlite/ vermiculite mix.

Well a week later it is starting to take off. Others are still shit.

View attachment 23849

I use Searles seed raising mix for cuttings. Dunno but it always works.

 

[frankreynolds]

well Frank , if osmocote treat there soil mix or compost they use in soil mixes with high temps , like nersuries do with steam i think you said before
( sorry if i put words in your mouth there ) aka sterilized to kill potentially disease-causing microorganisms , legionella for instance , the heat
used can be allot higher than natural composting temps , in effect hitting the soil with a antibiotic , they can't target individual bad bacteria or
pathogens , it can only be broad spectrum , kill all approach

it's the same thinking as Round Up Ready GMO , if you wipe out any / all pest , pathogen / bacteria , fungi in the grow environment
nothing can cause plant problems effecting the yield bottom line

i'm pretty sure canna terra pro soil is treated due to it being an import , can't remember what they use but i think it's more full on then steam sterilization

ok just jumped on the Australian Government Department of Ag , Water & the Environment
& went through importing Spagnam moss from Canada & this is what it says

Case: Sphagnum moss Effective: 27 Apr 2022​

Sphagnum moss — Not sphagnum liquid waste absorbent — Not for personal use — Country of origin is a country other than New Zealand​

Import Conditions​

Import conditions define the biosecurity requirements which must be met for your import. Where import conditions have been developed, they will be listed below.

1. A Department of Agriculture, Water and the Environment import permit is not required.
2. The goods must be clean and free of contaminant seed, soil, animal and plant debris and other prior to arrival in Australian territory.
3. Each consignment must be treated appropriately prior to export.
   To demonstrate compliance with this requirement you must present the following on a Phytosanitary certificate:
   An additional declaration that the consignment has been treated with one of the following approved treatments:
   1. ethylene oxide fumigation treatment, under an initial vacuum of 50kPa, at:
      2.1. a rate of 1200g/m3 for 5 hours at 50°C, or
      2.2. a rate of 1500g/m3 for 24 hours at 21°C
   2. heat treatment at no less than 85°C with hot air for not less than 12 hours once the core temperature has been reached, or
   3. gamma irradiation at 25 kGy (2.5Mrad).
   Treatment will be carried out at the importer's expense.
4. All material in the consignment must be dried
5. Any packaging used with the consignment must be clean and new.
6. Each consignment is subject to a full unpack and inspection at an approved arrangement site (AA site). Consignments will be inspected to ensure that they are free of live insects, seeds, viable plant material and other biosecurity risk material (BRM).
7. If live insects are found during inspection, the consignment will be:
   1. held pending identification by a Department of Agriculture, Water and the Environment entomologist and treated using an appropriate method, or
   2. exported, or
   3. disposed of.
   If other contaminants such as soil, weed seeds, sticks, or faecal matter are found on inspection, the consignment must be held, and the contaminants must be removed or treated via a method approved by the department, if possible. Alternatively, the goods must be exported or disposed of.
8. Under the and Chapter 9, Part 2 of the , fees are payable to the Department of Agriculture, Water and the Environment for all services. Detail on how the department applies fees and levies may be found in the .
9. In addition to the conditions for the goods being imported, non-commodity concerns must be assessed including container cleanliness, packaging and destination concerns, and may be subject to inspection and treatment on arrival. Please refer to the Non-Commodity Cargo Clearance BICON case for further information.
   
   
   

Again mate, I am making the point these companies do not steam treat there products before.

Some of the products they mix in may be imported i got no idea. But what difference is that to any of the peat that is imported for super soil mixes. I feel like im taking crazy pills.

 

[afghan bob]

Itchy is my Gandalf of shitty potting mix viability........'.U SHALL NOT BUY CRAPPY BAG MIXES'

 

[Indy]

Haven't used seed raising mixes for years, just straight into a premium potting mix, usually Searle's.

Seed raising mixes retain water longer than i prefer, and i like my seedlings to dry out a little between watering.

 

[itchybro]

Again mate, I am making the point these companies do not steam treat there products before.

Some of the products they mix in may be imported i got no idea. But what difference is that to any of the peat that is imported for super soil mixes. I feel like im taking crazy pills.

ok cool frank . let's agree that commercial bagged potting mix is void of life through reasons other than high temp steaming

the difference with the imported peat is , it's being re inoculated with biologically active compost or worm castings
in the process of making a living soil mix , its all about the biology !

you seem interested in soil biology so can i suggest looking up the Jeff Lowenfels book Teaming With Microbes , this book
will give you great insight into soil biology & it's use & possiblities

youtube anything from soil biologist Dr Elaine Ingham or Australian soil ecologist Dr Christine Jones , both
have incredible knowledge & again can open your mind to the use & possiblities of soil biology

& no crazy pills will be required in the learning of this knowledge , i promise

 

[frankreynolds]

I fail to see how a product that needs to be active biologically to be made in the first place for example the aging of pine bark (composting) can be devoid of all life? It seems that's jsut un true.

"In our laboratory, more than 600 fungal, bacterial, and actinomycete cultures antagonistic to P. ultimum were isolated directly from composted bark and from roots and vascular tissues of plants produced in bark compost obtained from a variety of sources (A. M. Moustafa, unpublished)"

JARS v36n2 - Composted Bark, A Light Weight Growth Medium with Fungicidal Properties

scholar.lib.vt.edu

Seems there is multiple ways to skin a cat

 

[itchybro]

" I fail to see how a product " ( by product you mean A DIY Soil Mix ? )

" that needs to be active biologically " ( yes i like my soil mix to be inoculated as much as possible with beneficial life )

" to be made in the first place " ( well considering the the theme of Bill's thread we've been posting in " Steer clear of this stuff. " ( Bill's opening line )
i would have thought it was pretty obvious why making your own soil mix might make more sense than buying it depending on a persons critria )

" for example the aging of pine bark (composting) " ( ahh no aging is not composting , they are 2 different things , compost is a product the resembles dark black soil , it has no remblence to pine bark , it will have varying nutrient levels depending on what it was made with , it'll be teaming with beneficial microbes to a more or lesser extent depending on how it was made )

" can be devoid of all life? " ( possibly , pine bark or wood chip is generally high in Lignin , that mostly feed fungi in the soil & would be a carbon source in the composting process , but many variables here , hard to difinitively say it's totally devoid of life unless tested in some form )

" It seems that's jsut un true." ( ? i don't know what you mean , what's not true ? , unless your saying the pine bark is devoid of life , so there for , the compost made with that pine bark should be the same , lifeless , but it's not ? )

" Link + Seems there is multiple ways to skin a cat " ( I think your pointing out the benefits of using a compost over using peat , peat is definately a depleting natural resource , i know they have trialed replacements , one called pittmoss which is a wood based product from memory & of cause coco as a replacement as well , i'm guessing here , but using peat in a soil mix vs only compost would be like using coco with perlite or just straight coco without perlite , it'll work but will require management , but the interesting thing about that link you posted is all the supression of pathogens you get from using biologically active compost , its all about the biology ! )

 

[itchybro]

What Is The Soil Food Web
less than 6 minutes long

 

[itchybro]

Building Structure In Soil​

Weed Suppression Using the Soil Food Web

Suppressing Pests and Diseases Using the Soil Food Web

Soil Carbon Sequestration and the Soil Food Web

Nutrient Cycling and the Soil Food Web

 

[frankreynolds]

" I fail to see how a product " ( by product you mean A DIY Soil Mix ? )

" that needs to be active biologically " ( yes i like my soil mix to be inoculated as much as possible with beneficial life )

" to be made in the first place " ( well considering the the theme of Bill's thread we've been posting in " Steer clear of this stuff. " ( Bill's opening line )
i would have thought it was pretty obvious why making your own soil mix might make more sense than buying it depending on a persons critria )

" for example the aging of pine bark (composting) " ( ahh no aging is not composting , they are 2 different things , compost is a product the resembles dark black soil , it has no remblence to pine bark , it will have varying nutrient levels depending on what it was made with , it'll be teaming with beneficial microbes to a more or lesser extent depending on how it was made )

" can be devoid of all life? " ( possibly , pine bark or wood chip is generally high in Lignin , that mostly feed fungi in the soil & would be a carbon source in the composting process , but many variables here , hard to difinitively say it's totally devoid of life unless tested in some form )

" It seems that's jsut un true." ( ? i don't know what you mean , what's not true ? , unless your saying the pine bark is devoid of life , so there for , the compost made with that pine bark should be the same , lifeless , but it's not ? )

" Link + Seems there is multiple ways to skin a cat " ( I think your pointing out the benefits of using a compost over using peat , peat is definately a depleting natural resource , i know they have trialed replacements , one called pittmoss which is a wood based product from memory & of cause coco as a replacement as well , i'm guessing here , but using peat in a soil mix vs only compost would be like using coco with perlite or just straight coco without perlite , it'll work but will require management , but the interesting thing about that link you posted is all the supression of pathogens you get from using biologically active compost , its all about the biology ! )

Mate, my point has always been this pine bark based potting mixes are biologically active. That is a fact. Not trying to compare them to anything else in quality of individual products etc.

The pine bark is composted (aged just a common term used) see
AS 4454 (2012) - The Australian Standard for Composts, Soil Conditioners and Mulches, defines composting as “the process whereby organic materials are microbiologically transformed under controlled aerobic conditions to achieve pasteurization and a specified level of maturity”.

I'm not trying to prove anything with that link other than to show bark based mixes have a lot of active bioloigy. all I have been trying to say.

Anyway if you're gonna buy shit from bunnings use my famous fingering technique on the bags checks what's inside because the real killer is the shitty conditions and long time on shelves that i'm sure a lot have bought.

 

[itchybro]

" Mate, my point has always been this pine bark based potting mixes are biologically active. That is a fact "

That is absolutely not a fact , that is total bullshit , the bagged end product is almost dead if not totally dead

& at a guess , if there is any life in it i would suggest it ain't beneficial life = possibly why you find lots of warnings

on the bag about breathing dust & bad pathogens even though they add "the you beaut" windrow pine bark compost

to the potting mix



AS 4454 (2012) , this standard is for Composts, Soil Conditioners and Mulches , Not potting mixes , but either way the potting mix bag you

buy off the shelf at bunnings has very little to no life in it , with things like added slow release fertilizer pellets , among other things

will negatively impact soil life



" I'm not trying to prove anything with that link other than to show bark based mixes have a lot of active bioloigy."

once again the pine bark composting process might have a little bit of life when finished & ready to be mixed into a potting mix

but by the time the rest of the crap is added before mixing & it's bagged & shipped to storage before being shipped to retailers where it sits

on the shelf waiting to be brought , it's dead mate , you can tell this by putting a plant in it & watching it grow & comparing the growth

& health to a mix from @Donothing-garden (Easy as organics) for instance



" Anyway if you're gonna buy shit from bunnings use " my famous fingering technique" on the bags checks what's inside "

not sure what putting your finger in the bag will show you when talking bout microscopic organisms

fingering a bag might give you an idea of moisture content which is important for beneficial life , might also give an idea

on visible added amendments like water holding crystals , pelleted fertilizer & aeration components but you'd need a microscope

to be checking for bacteria or fungi , then you's need the skills to be able to identify the good guys from the bad guys

so fingering a bag might give you some info but ain't going to help in regards to soil life

 

[frankreynolds]

" Mate, my point has always been this pine bark based potting mixes are biologically active. That is a fact "

That is absolutely not a fact , that is total bullshit , the bagged end product is almost dead if not totally dead

& at a guess , if there is any life in it i would suggest it ain't beneficial life = possibly why you find lots of warnings

on the bag about breathing dust & bad pathogens even though they add "the you beaut" windrow pine bark compost

to the potting mix



AS 4454 (2012) , this standard is for Composts, Soil Conditioners and Mulches , Not potting mixes , but either way the potting mix bag you

buy off the shelf at bunnings has very little to no life in it , with things like added slow release fertilizer pellets , among other things

will negatively impact soil life



" I'm not trying to prove anything with that link other than to show bark based mixes have a lot of active bioloigy."

once again the pine bark composting process might have a little bit of life when finished & ready to be mixed into a potting mix

but by the time the rest of the crap is added before mixing & it's bagged & shipped to storage before being shipped to retailers where it sits

on the shelf waiting to be brought , it's dead mate , you can tell this by putting a plant in it & watching it grow & comparing the growth

& health to a mix from @Donothing-garden (Easy as organics) for instance



" Anyway if you're gonna buy shit from bunnings use " my famous fingering technique" on the bags checks what's inside "

not sure what putting your finger in the bag will show you when talking bout microscopic organisms

fingering a bag might give you an idea of moisture content which is important for beneficial life , might also give an idea

on visible added amendments like water holding crystals , pelleted fertilizer & aeration components but you'd need a microscope

to be checking for bacteria or fungi , then you's need the skills to be able to identify the good guys from the bad guys

so fingering a bag might give you some info but ain't going to help in regards to soil life

There you go comparing, not what I was trying to do. I'm sure easy as is a great product.

Do we have a lab breakdown of the microbes available? Because otherwise I think it's called hyperbole. Do we have a breakdown of the microbes available in for example easy as product versus a pine bark based one?

Again not implying ones better than the other, just want to know facts. You are making claims about dead mixes with out proof. I gave you proof.

Finger test is to see the state of the mix in the bags, whether its too dry, too damp smells rotting due to anaerobic conditions.