Dipel (bacillus thuringiensis)

Old fox

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Has anyone used Dipel outdoors to manage(kill) caterpillars ?? Its naturally occurring and apparently safe for humans. I'm looking for something to use outdoors during last few weeks of flower, with the final application a week before harvest. Interested if it affects flower taste/flavour in any way, so late in flowering?
 

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Billygoat

80085
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Reading the MSDS, not sure I would want to:


But, this thread seems to believe it is cool:

 

Pedro de pacas

FIGJAM - Artisan of Bullshit.
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I use it up to the first few weeks of flowering, there on there own after that
you would want to hope for rain before you harvest if your using it in flower ?
 

Porky

The Dwarf Hermie King
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I’ve used it on me tomatoes lots. It fuckin works great.
Like Pedro said I wouldn’t use it past the very early stages of flowering.
Don’t think smoking would be very pleasant.
 

Old fox

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I asked because of mixed (conflicting) reports online. First time I'd seen the MSDS, which lists it as a possible carcinogenic. Hmmmm. BT is supposed to be naturally occurring, and organic. Wtf. Rain in the last few weeks prior to harvest is a given. Lol. Most reports advise rain will wash it off the plant within a day. Hmmmm?
 

frankreynolds

Curing
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It's as if everything organic isn't all flowers and sunshine eyy old fox. We had to breed the cyanide levels outta almonds i think it was?

Never used diper on canna but as said above i use it on my tomato plants
 

Joe Dirte

Curing
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A friend of mine uses it old fox right up till the last two weeks, it works and his pot is still lovely. It's widely used in vegetable production and I reckon personally it's safer than neem or pyrethrum. I'm adding it to my flower regime outdoors this year for sure, sick of fucking caterpillar shit in my buds causing mould!!
 

Old fox

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It's as if everything organic isn't all flowers and sunshine eyy old fox. We had to breed the cyanide levels outta almonds i think it was?

Never used diper on canna but as said above i use it on my tomato plants
Yeah beer and wine use organic ingredients, yet at ultra high doses, it can kill. Go figure...lol
 

Old fox

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A friend of mine uses it old fox right up till the last two weeks, it works and his pot is still lovely. It's widely used in vegetable production and I reckon personally it's safer than neem or pyrethrum. I'm adding it to my flower regime outdoors this year for sure, sick of fucking caterpillar shit in my buds causing mould!!
Similar problem here Joe. The butterflies turn up in last 3 to 4 weeks of flower. Not sure if the caterpillar poo causes mould OR the area they eat is exposed to water entry, which in turn causes the mould. Either way, pillars arent helpful in finishing an outdoor plant.
 

Old fox

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I'll do a test spray on a single indoor bud, this run. At 3 weeks out and again 2 weeks out from harvest. I'll spray a bud next week ( 3 weeks out from harvest), and another separate bud the following week, to see if any taste residue is noticeable in the harvested flower.
 

itchybro

Sultan Of Soil
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based on the msds bill posted , i think it's the 2% Quartz in dipel is the issue

important , any spraying always mask up , organic or not

dipel also has organic certification i think ?

old fox dipel leaves a visual residue on the foliage after spraying

being pre-emptive is good but maybe better working on plant health as a preventative
measure to pest or pathogen control

regular top dresses of castings & malted barley powder , watering's of aloe & diy seasol
avoid bottle feeding like powerfeed , use cover crops , the healthier you get the plant the
more it will fight it's own battles

side note , one of the reasons for malted barley = chitinase
( & it's cheap at around $6 a kilo )



To most effectively use chitin you need to understand the three related compounds.
Chitin
Chitosan
Chitinase

Chitin is a compound that makes up the shells of crustaceans/arthropods. Not only that, but chitin helps form the cell walls of fungi (I will share the importance of this later). And even more good news, it is a main component of the exoskeleton of insects. One thing you also need to be aware of is that it is found in the “skin†of worms.

Chitosan is a compound that is created from the breakdown of chitin. Chitosan is the product that you may find most commercially available as both a plant growth regulator and a "no risk" systematic pesticide. Note: per my current understanding most chitosan is produced using a synthetic process on an organic product, thus is not truly organic. Not only that, but if you are using it to reverse an outbreak, it may not be the best option. I will share a better option in a minute.

Chitinase is the naturally occurring enzyme that breaks chitin down into chitosan. I will repeat that point, it is the central point you need to know in order to organically reverse a disease (and possibly even insect) outbreak using chitin! Chitinase is the enzyme that breaks chitin down into chitosan. Some living organisms produce this chitinase enzyme. Most of these organisms are bacteria (and some fungi). Some plants even produce this enzyme in order to fight off disease (this is the "system" that we will use to model our pest control treatment). Anyways, many of the chitinase producing microorganisms are known crustacean pathogens. These organisms produce this enzyme so they can break down crustacean shells (in order to eat it, or get through it to invade the shellfish itself). While this may seem bad, it can be used to our organic advantage.

Ok, now that you are a little familiar with each of these substances let's start talking pest control. There are really two stages of pest control: preventative and reactive.


PREVENTATIVE PEST CONTROL using chitin and chitosan
Like I mentioned, chitin is found on the outer parts of fungi and bugs. Some plants use this to their advantage. They have receptors that sense chitin. When the plant detects chitin (especially in high concentrations) it assumes that it is being attacked by either an insect or a fungal disease. The plant will ramp up its defenses. It will thicken and strengthen its cell walls. If it can, it will start making chitinase.

Why would a plant make chitinase if it thinks it is being attacked? Well as you know, chitinase breaks chitin down. Hence, when the fungi or insect comes in contact with the plant, the plant will excrete these enzymes. When the enzyme touches the chitin on the pest, it will break it down. As the chitin breaks down the pest either becomes vulnerable and weak or even flat out die. In this way some plants produce their own ‘insecticide' and ‘fungicide', albeit in very limited quantities.

So why apply chitosan?
Well, plants can react to chitosan in the same way as chitin. When they detect it they will beef up their defenses. Hence companies sell chitosan as a systematic pesticide. Could the same effect be achieved by using chitin itself? Yes. I understand it though that most companies sell chitosan because it is more soluble and can be better mixed and sprayed as a solution.

I also understand that as the plant works to strengthen its cell walls etc, it must create new growth. Hence chitin and chitosan are used as plant growth regulators that increase plant growth. When you apply the product the plant will put energy into growth as it tries to defend itself against the apparent attack.

In summary, when you apply chitin or even chitosan you will stimulate the plant to beef up its defenses. In this way your plant will be less susceptible to diseases and insects. This is most effective before the pant is being attacked. If an outbreak is already in progress, there is a better option. \t\t

Now that we know how to use chitin products to help prevent outbreaks, how do we use them to correct outbreaks that are in progress?


REACTIVE PEST CONTROL using chitin, chitosan, AND chitinase.
Suppose that your plant (be it tomato, squash, etc. or even a fruit tree) is already being attacked by a pest. What can you do? Applying chitin or chitosan can't hurt, but my experience suggests that there is a more effective alternative.

Plants can kill fungi/bugs using the chitinase enzyme, so why can't you? The idea is to use the plants natural model to provide your own pest control. You simply need to make a concentrated amount of chitinase and apply it. You will effectively be applying a concentrated dose of a natural pesticide.............. by using malted barley


read the rest here : https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/chitin-chitoson-and-chitinase.1132938/
 

Old fox

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Thanks for your comments @itchybro. I had previously research Chitosan, and sounds like a useful soil additive as part of IPM. The things you previously advised( Neem meal, kelp meal, aloe and P.S. foliar sprays) were all helpful, and will be used again for this years summer grow. I'll still run some indoor taste tests on Dipel sprayed flower, as a possible contingency to another outdoor pillar invasion. Who would have thought butterflies(pillars) could make grown men so nervous. 😭😭
 

ihermit

Germinating
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I 've never used it in the last two/three weeks. My caterpillar strike has been earlier. Very effective. I think I scorched a plant last season when I forgot to stir the mixture properly (stoned again) and burned a plant. The plant did not continue to produce flowers where it was burnt. I have heard another grower use 'Spinosad' ... which is not organic. No effect on taste.
 

itchybro

Sultan Of Soil
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yes old fox there are many things that can happen to these plants that can make a grown man cry

from my simple mind understanding

a plants health is sometimes measured in brix levels which is a measure of sugar in the leaves , i think most insects can't
deal with consuming excess sugars , they can turn some sugar into fat in there bodies but any high brix plant becomes mostly unpalatable to bugs like pillars

to these well hated pesky fuckers , the question is how do you increase brix , i can tell you how to measure it , i can tell you
how high a brix reading needs to be but don't know i can give you a guide book to high brix readings accept to say soil life has allot to do with it

cover crops to increase soil biology = root protection & Trap Plants for above ground protection = butterfly's prefer a plant more than your cash crop
 

frankreynolds

Curing
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Also worth noting for people that get there plants attacked earlier in the season when they are smaller is to just use exclusion. Putting up netting to stop the butterflies is a very easy and effective way of stopping them laying eggs on your plants.

Obviously not applicable in all circumstances.
 

ihermit

Germinating
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I know what you mean! I check my plants daily especially when there are moths and butterflies around. I grow in a eucalypt forest and a good season may also mean a good moth season.

Last season, in the final weeks I checked closely instead of Dipel'd. (Chuckle chuckle brag brag almost had to use a ladder!)

Who would have thought butterflies(pillars) could make grown men so nervous. 😭😭
 

Pedro de pacas

FIGJAM - Artisan of Bullshit.
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I have to use a ladder here, its no laughing matter, bloody dangerous when your a pissed/stoned old tunc

Not sure the city growers realize the amount of butterfly's and moths you can get in the country
they can strip the foliage of young trees, killing them, on a bad year nothing is safe, even the weeds get demolished
 
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